Francis Chan Tosses His Old Church Under the Bus

Recently, Crazy Love author, Francis Chan, former pastor of Cornerstone Church in Simi Valley, California, gave a TED talk-esque sermon to a gathering of Facebook employees. During that talk, he shared his soul as to why he left his “megachurch” seven years ago. In short, he basically threw the fine folks of Cornerstone under the proverbial bus. Everyone there, he lamented, were a bunch of losers who never exercised their spiritual gifts and instead came to watch him perform. Francis effectively models for us the worst shepherding skills a pastor can possibly have.

A Little Background

Francis Chan, believe it or not, is a Master’s Seminary graduate. That’s right, he attended both the Master’s University (formerly The Master’s College) and the Master’s Seminary where pastor-teacher John MacArthur is president. In fact, he was a year or so a head of me in his classes when I began.

He started Cornerstone Community Church in the living room of his house in the early 90s with just a handful of people. Within a short time, the study grew exponentially, and they began meeting in a building. By the early 2000s, Cornerstone had grown to a few thousand members.

Francis is a gifted speaker. He also has a winsome enough personality that he was able to pull together many fine men to help lead his church. I happen to know a few of them from TMS. My wife is from Simi Valley, which is just 20 minutes or so away from where we currently live. Several of her friends from college attended Cornerstone and absolutely loved it. They loved the teaching, the fellowship, and the many opportunities they had for serving.

I personally wasn’t a fan of Francis. He was a nice enough guy and I certainly appreciated his passion. His attempted exposition of the Scriptures, however, was a bit too shallow for me. It was more like topical preaching, rather than expositional. For instance, he would race through an entire chapter of a book in one message, sometimes two, depending upon what he was addressing.

Additionally, the church atmosphere was too causal. I spoke with one guy who visited there who likened the worship service to attending a college retreat every Sunday. There was lots of CCM for worship, and people showing up for church dressed like they just rolled out of bed.

Francis’s Magical Faith Journey

In April, 2010, Francis invoked charismatic whimsy, announcing to the dismay of pretty much everyone at Cornerstone that he was stepping down as pastor.  Clothed in a pair of faded jeans and a tee shirt, he shakily explained how “God was leading him” in a new direction. He was taking his family on a spiritual walk about to find God’s will for his life. See Justin Taylor’s article about it HERE.

Francis wasn’t sure where his journey was taking him. He planned some trips to a few large U.S. cities to “pray and walk” them to find God’s direction. He was then travelling to the third world to hang out for two or three months.

Many popular evangelical commentators weepily applauded his decision, wishing they had his boldness to drastically step out on faith like he did. More sensible believers, on the other hand, thought he was impulsively flying by the seat of his pants.  I thought to myself at the time, “Where in the Bible does God call people to aimlessly wander around in order to find His will?” He was justifying his rash decision to abandon his church by using spiritual lingo. If a year into his journey he crashes and burns, God is to blame because He was the one who called him.

Moreover, Francis expressed a heart for an urban, inner-city environment. I wondered why Christians have such a romantic fixation with the third-world and the inner-city. For some reason, they never sense God calling them to rural Kentucky or Ohio. Furthermore, Francis lived just 40 minutes from downtown LA. If he genuinely had a heart for city work, he should look out his backdoor.

My friend, Dan Phillips, wrote a brilliant, must read blog post warning against a leader exercising such irresponsible, foolish decision making. A pastor claiming God is calling him to wander the earth to find God’s will is ultimately harming the people he is shepherding. He is merely modeling for them conduct that can potentially leads a person to disaster. The comments under that post are also worth the read as well.

The Facebook Gathering

Fast-forward to present day 2017. Thankfully, God conveniently led Francis back to his hometown of San Francisco. There, he now has access to the computer-tech industry and that affords him speaking gigs with folks at Facebook. During his recent talk, he opened up more as to why he left his church seven years ago.

But Chan felt the megachurch he founded was not as God intended it to be.

“I got frustrated at a point, just biblically,” Chan said during a talk in Facebook headquarters in California last Thursday. “I’m going wait a second. According to the Bible, every single one of these people has a supernatural gift that’s meant to be used for the body. And I’m like 5,000 people show up every week to hear my gift, see my gift. That’s a lot of waste. Then I started thinking how much does it cost to run this thing? Millions of dollars!”

“So I’m wasting the human resource of these people that according to Scripture have a miraculous gift that they could contribute to the body but they’re just sitting there quietly. … [T]hey just sit there and listen to me.”

Moreover, he felt the church wasn’t following God’s command to love one another — attendees would simply greet each other for 30 seconds and mainly hang out in cliques once a week.

“I was like, ‘God, you wanted a church that was known for their love. You wanted a group of people where everyone was expressing their gifts. … We’re a body. I’m one member, maybe I’m the mouth. But if the mouth is the only thing that’s working and … I’m trying to drag the rest of the body along, chewing on the carpet …”

The entire article can be read HERE. (Oh. And by the way, be warned. It’s a Christian Post article, which means you will be bombarded with pop-up ads, so have your ad blocker on full alert).

Allow me to deconstruct his comments

– Let’s consider the setting. He is making his remarks to a group of Facebook employees. Now maybe it is a Facebook employee Bible study group, who knows. I find it extremely distasteful that Francis would choose to publicly disparage his former church in the presence of unbelievers, at an organization that has a reputation of hostility toward the Christian faith.

– I happen to know a number of people who attended Cornerstone, and some who still do. It is a gross slander for him to paint his former congregation as a bunch of spiritually lazy bums who only came around to hear him speak. They were all actively involved with ministry. They served one another, as well as the local community. Many people gave their time, energy, and money to further both national and international missions. How he can say they are wasting their spiritual giftedness is a baffling lie.

– He complains they hung out in cliques. You mean like their fellowship groups? You mean with their friends? I’ve heard Christians opine against “cliques” over the years, but what on earth is wrong with a clique?

My wife and I are raising children. The friends we hang out with are other couples raising their children. Both of us were once single. We both hung out with like-minded, single friends. There is nothing shameful or unspiritual about cliques, and Christians should disabuse their wrong thinking about the idea.

Amusingly, the article goes on to report about Francis’s new ministry endeavor he calls, We Are Church. (That doesn’t sound cultic at all!),

There are currently 14 to 15 house churches, he said, and 30 pastors (two pastors per church) — all of whom do it for free. [Heaven forbid a church financially support a pastor full-time – Fred]. Each church is designed to be small so it’s more like family where members can actually get to know one another, love one another and make use of their gifts.

“We’ve got a few hundred people now and it costs nothing,” Chan explained. “And everyone’s growing and everyone’s having to read this book (Bible) for themselves and people actually caring for one another. I don’t even preach. They just meet in their homes, they study, they pray, they care for one another. They’re becoming the church and I’m just loving it and realizing that these 30 guys [are] leading this and the women as well.”

Perhaps I’m a nit-picker, but 14 to 15 small house churches with everyone meeting together to pray, study, and care for each other like a family sounds rather cliquey to me.

– The reasons he gives in his talk for leaving Cornerstone, contradict the vague, squishy reason he gave immediately after he left. See HERE.

– If he wearied of leading a church bloated with spiritual deadbeats, did he not think to bring his concerns before the leadership? Why not address his concerns before the congregation? He could have given a series of sermons that challenged the church to step up their ministry game. Instead, he blames God for calling him away.

– Shepherds generally set the tone for their congregation to follow. If the church was nothing but a massive flophouse for Christian bums, what should that tell us about Francis the pastor?

I will grant that troubled churches exist. A pastor can give his heart and soul to a body of believers who will in the end reject him. I think of Jonathan Edwards’s infamous dismissal from his pulpit by the church he pastored for 20 plus years.

That stated, there is an underlying selfishness revealed in his comments that all pastors will do well to take heed. He complains they were there just to hear him speak. That he had to drag them along “chewing on the carpet.” No one was following God’s commands to love one another.  That is a terrifically narcissistic attitude. It is all about the people serving him, not about him serving the people. May we avoid at all cost the Francis Chan model of shepherding.

 

83 Comments
  1. Richard 3 months ago

    You do a good job of identifying the diseased doctrine that led Francis to do some of the things that he did/does. I’m always amazed by the folks who want everyone to do ministry for “free” when the NT is very clear that a faithful shepherd is worthy of support, and that such an arrangement is actually desirable (see 1 Corinthians 9 and 1 Timothy 5:17-18). Much of that thinking flows from men who really don’t have the kind of love for the church that would lead them to devote their entire life to the work, especially if it meant that they were entirely DEPENDENT upon a local church for their livelihood. In other words, they want autonomy. You can be sure that Chan and others derive a living in SOME way. It isn’t any more virtuous to receive financial income outside the church than it is from the church, so long as you are faithful in your work. The reason I focus in on the financial aspect is because I think it identifies a thread that often runs through the “crazy love” kind of approach to the Christian life. That thread is, “look at me!” “Look at how virtuous I am, how selfless, how disinterested in what everyone else seems interested in, etc.” In the name of being “selfless” they put a big ole spotlight on themselves. Very, very, dangerous.

  2. Cris 3 months ago

    This is an incorrect picture of what Francis Chan has shared. He has a plethora of video sermons available online, which make very clear, the point he’s making. If you’d like, perhaps confront him, as a brother, bringing church discipline in a biblical manner, rather than “throwing him under the bus”.

    Perhaps there’s a bias, given his desire to be Spirit led & directed. I know that TMU is not friendly toward that type of thing. (See “Strange Fire” conference materials) I’m quite frankly, shocked at the spirit of this article & don’t see a lot of love there.

    Sure there’s a little more going on here, than meets the eye……just sayin’….

    • David Pauley 2 months ago

      Chris, Chan has spoken in a number of very public forums and therefore SHOULD and MUST be corrected publicly. In Scripture, when Peter was in danger of dishonesty about the Gospel, Paul confronted him in a pubic setting (Gal 2:11-14) because of his influence and impact on others…because what he done was viewed by all, it had the danger of widespread harm to the church…as is the case with Chan.

      The reason why you must not restrict the confrontation to the Matthew 19 pattern is the infectious misinformation that has been distributed to the whole church by bad doctrine and/or dangerous ideologies. What Chan said even infected a few people at the church I pastor. He must be addressed publicly in order to protect the many Christians who may potentially be misled by Chan.

      And no, Chan is not being misrepresented by this article. His preaching is somewhat shallow, it is not true exposition, and his bailing out of his pastoral duties was wrong headed and unScriptural. A sound pastor would have done differently by his congregation, and he failed them. His primary responsibility was to Cornerstone. He has publicly misrepresented them, and instead of shepherding them, he has bailed on them to pursue his own spiritual “journey”.

    • Lynn 1 month ago

      Couldn’t agree with you more. Extremely disappointed by the tone and nature of this article. This person comes across as a judgmental Pharisee, or at best a jealous teenager. He needs to focus on his own relationship with Christ and stop criticizing others.

      • Profile photo of Fredman Author
        Fredman 1 month ago

        Lynn complains,
        -This person comes across as a judgmental Pharisee, or at best a jealous teenager. He needs to focus on his own relationship with Christ and stop criticizing others.-

        Why is it judgmental phariseeism to call out a man who is lying against a group of Christians to an audience of unbelievers? You genuinely think it is just aimless, mean-spirited criticism to point out that he is wildly inconsistent with his testimony as to why he originally left his church with the recent talk where he throws them under the proverbial bus?

        • Lynn 1 month ago

          I won’t argue with you. Your words speak for themselves. You need to reexamine your motives. Your heart. You’ve opened yourself up to as much criticism as you’ve dished out. And you’ve done as much damage to the church as you claim he has. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

  3. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 2 months ago

    Chris writes,
    – I’m quite frankly, shocked at the spirit of this article & don’t see a lot of love there.-

    Really? You seriously don’t think Francis did anything wrong going to a group of unbelievers and talking trash about his former church? Especially stuff that is not true given that I happen to know a lot of the people he claims aren’t spirit filled and using their gifts. Francis slandered them publicly and he owes them a public apologies. Utterly shameful what he did.

    • Cris 2 months ago

      Jesus said that He would spew the lukewarm, of the Laodacaen church, out of His mouth……while Francis shares a different relationship with them, obviously, as their pastor, I think frustration at the lacsadasical church, is a Chist-like attitude, based on scripture.

      Perhaps the many sermons he preached, calling them to action, we’re sufficient in God’s eyes.

      No, I don’t think the tone of this article is kind or gentle, and as such, not in a spirit of love & reconciliation….

      • Profile photo of Fredman Author
        Fredman 2 months ago

        – I think frustration at the lacsadasical church, is a Chist-like attitude, based on scripture.-

        Cornerstone was never, nor is it now, a Laodacean church. They are not lukewarm. If that is the idea you are taking away from Francis, that is a lie and slander against them. He is falsely accusing them and he needs to repent.

    • Sean 2 months ago

      Yes!

  4. Gillian 2 months ago

    Enjoyed learning more about this and understanding better why I don’t agree with FC. Only thing I disagree with is the clique breakdown. You may see that word differently, but to me a “clique” implies 2 things:

    1) You only spend time with those whom you think you are best suited to get along with.

    2) You exclude those who don’t fit your cliques specific profile.

    I that I think as Christian’s this is completely unbiblical and against what Jesus did himself in His life’s entirety even by fellowshipping with tax collectors and prostitutes. I understand that of course there will be those who we find closer friendships with and end up spending more time with over others. We don’t all have to be best friends. This however does not mean we should exclude getting to know others or not include others from things because they are different or may not fit our social profile. As one body the church we are to be just that…ONE body, not a bunch of different cliques. Unity should be the goal. Always.

  5. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 2 months ago

    – 1) You only spend time with those whom you think you are best suited to get along with.

    2) You exclude those who don’t fit your cliques specific profile.-

    If you define clique in our modern vernacular that is found in such movies as Mean Girls and Breakfast Club, I agree. I take clique to mean those people who share values, common goals, desires, and look after one another. Something I have always experienced in all the various “cliques” I’ve been apart of in church.

    What I see Francis doing birthing his new house church denomination is creating a new clique. Eventually, anyone who doesn’t buy into their small groups home church view of Christianity will not fit into their “clique.”

  6. Javier 2 months ago

    I felt this way for a while about Chan. I figured it was just me, that I was missing something.

  7. Adam 2 months ago

    You can add to this article that Francis Chan took every opportunity to praise himself and his accompliments.

    To that point he literally opened his message by reading a letter that praised himself.

    So I now know Chan is a great dad, a millionaire author, but super humble enough to give it all away, he grew a church from his living room to 5,000, he’s been on the cover of a magazine, he’s a gifted speaker, he called everyone in his yearbook to spread the gospel, and his new home church movement will double every year so it can reach 1.5 million people.

    • Anon 2 months ago

      Food for thought. Who is it, that causes the growth of the Church? God gets the credit, not our pastors. Yes. Pastors are responsible and held accountable but the growth of the actual members of Christ’s church belongs to God alone.

      • Monique Jackson 2 months ago

        Amen! Stop the pissing and moaning you grown adult “Christians”. Seriously, we have wars, political unrest, human trafficking, extreme poverty, wars all over the world and yet you find time to “dismantle” this article on a fellow brother. C’mon!! Get with the Kingdom program y’all! Stop your moaning and groaning, critiquing…leave that for God to do. It does say in the Word that we will be held accountable for all of our actions when it God calls us home. Let him take care of it. Shut up and do Kingdom work. Please. And this is why the world sees us Christians as these “Self-righteous” bigots…lets lead by example and keep our judgemental attitudes and perspective to ourselves and lift up in prayer. Pray for your brother or sister who you feel slighted by! My gosh! IS there even time to feel slighted in the world and times we live in??? I can’t believe these are seminary grads, you all are barking up the wrong tree. Let it go and Let God be God. In the end He wins, in the end if Chan was in the wrong and he didnt do anything to correct his actions then let God be the avenger, who else does it best but GOD!??? Now go be the Church and save some souls and love people to the Cross…let’s be Glory Chaser not Self-Righteous Haters!

        • Profile photo of Fredman Author
          Fredman 2 months ago

          Monique complains,
          – Shut up and do Kingdom work. –

          Part of kingdom work, Monique, is confronting liars when they lie against God’s people. Francis is lying against God’s people. So I am confronting.

  8. Amy 2 months ago

    We actually did Crazy Love as our small church group study. Among our group were seasoned Christians, newer believers (like my husband), and a couple that had recently left the LDS church. I remember being really bothered by a few things that we watched in the videos that came with the study. For example, the idea that saving money or having a 401K is displaying a lack of trust in God and his provision in your life. I’m just sitting there scratching my head like, “How is being prepared in the modern world displaying a lack of trust in God’s provision?”. Sadly, the worst part in the video was where Francis discusses a funeral service that he was taking part in . . . .he says that he wondered if that person were even really going to heaven because the individual’s life did not appear to be fruitbearing apparently up to his standards. The LDS couple who were seeking a new relationship with Jesus after being in a cult that works their followers to death in order to display “holiness” and achieve the celestial kingdom by good works were so turned off that they left our small group. I remember my husband having significant anxiety that perhaps we were lukewarm because we weren’t doing it the F.C. way and maybe we wouldn’t be going to heaven. Maybe attending church twice a week in addition to small group, tithing dutifully, teaching VBS every year, volunteering for the meal ministry, homeschooling our children and teaching them Christian theology and doctrine without fail daily for 5 years isn’t enough. . . maybe we needed to turn our house into a homeless shelter and live in a tent instead and do inner city ministry, give away all of our savings so we are penniless, be missionaries in Iraq or at the very least be roadside preachers with pamphlets and signs, you know, practice real life suffering and martyrdom, in order to be saved. . . super CRAZY love style. I said, “Well, if we are called to do those things, then we will know it. Right now, we are called to raise these three kids and train them up in the way they should go. That’s the mission field we are in and we are doing it the best we can.”

    • Isikeli 2 weeks ago

      Amy, I loved reading your comments. The reason I read this because I only just found Francis Chan and from the first few session I sensed his teaching did not sit well. Then I realised that the reason I picked it up because the word that lives in me showed it to me or showed him up as someone who I need to be weary of. So here is what I could offer to members of his church or those who follow his teachings. Read up the word in your quiet time. The Holy Spirit himself will teach you if you care to listen to Him. Its what Jesus said to his disciples – He will send another to teach us and remind us of what he taught and what he is about. He did not say OK when I leave you Peter will lead and by the way wait till you meet Paul. No both of these stalwart men of Christ needed to be taught by the Holy Spirit so should all of us so called believers. Let Him teach you by you allowing your heart to wonder and ponder scriptures. I was a born again 40 years ago but never understood what its like to be a believer until now- I was busy living my life until he called me to commit to a local church which I am a member now since 2014. I have learnt that He is the best teacher and literally taught me all I know about Him from His word. I go and listen to the Pastor every Sunday or other days just to see that I am learning the same thing. You see when Pastors release the word of God it is for everyone. Some will work for you other times you will leave not getting a thing at all – it means you are well on your way to growing in faith. You are the child of God and He wants to teach you and see you grow and bear fruit. Whether you remain a parent and a church worker or turn your home into a shelter – God will guide you to what He has already have in store for you. Keep praying and reading and asking Him to teach you His word – no one does it better than Him.

  9. Kenneth Steadman 2 months ago

    Don’t have a dog in the fight, as they say, because I know very little about Chan, the church for which he was the formerly sheepherder, or DTWN for that matter. My two cents is this: if you want to use your “historical” definition of clique, ESPECIALLY as it applies to those in a local church, your are sadly delusional. A clique in the local church is indeed “Breakfast Club” exclusionary/same-mindedness that is detrimental to church unity. A clique isn’t always a group of friends. (In fact, some cliques are constituted of people who may not even like each other!) . Ask 10 people what a clique is in a church and you would be hard-pressed to find the “friendly” definition. Just sayin….

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      Okay Kenneth, if you say so.

  10. Leigh 2 months ago

    I read through your article and wondered what your motive was in writing it? The things you were accusing FC of (and I have barely listened to him, so don’t have an accurate picture of him) seemed that you were doing exactly the same by criticising him and putting yourself in the spotlight as to be the “right” person and sharing on Facebook for all to see. So how is what he did any different than what you did?
    I wondered what your main motive was in writing this?

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      Leigh writes,
      – I read through your article and wondered what your motive was in writing it?-

      I was motivated by the fact that Francis took an opportunity to lie against and trash talk his old church in a hypocritical fashion.

      – So how is what he did any different than what you did?-

      I didn’t bad mouth and lie against a church in front of a company of unbelievers.

  11. Lorna Couillard 2 months ago

    I saw no blaming God from Mr. Chan. He spoke his heart, and I’m sure he expected this kind of response before he ever spoke. This article exemplifies why I, and MANY other’s are done with organized church and religion, of any kind. Jesus is absent.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      Lorna writes,
      – He spoke his heart, and I’m sure he expected this kind of response before he ever spoke. –

      Yes. He did speak his heart. Which means he lied about why he initially abandoned his old church. He also lied against what his old church was all about. They were, and still are, a very spirit filled, serving church who love each other and people. Everything he told those Facebook employees was wrong and he needs to apologize.

      • Susan 2 months ago

        You are confusing though. In the beginning of the article, you criticize and say you didn’t care for his church. But then you praise the church and defend them in yiur responses. It seems you folks at P&P dislike anyone well known with successful ministries and grasp at any straw to criticize. Meanwhile, you sit behind your computers churning out negative articles….

        • Profile photo of Fredman Author
          Fredman 2 months ago

          Susan states,
          – You are confusing though. In the beginning of the article, you criticize and say you didn’t care for his church.-

          I wrote that I was not a fan of Francis’s teaching (never have been) and that the church was too causal. That does not mean the people there are spiritless bums not doing a thing for the Kingdom of God, and just hanging around to hear Francis.

          – It seems you folks at P&P dislike anyone well known with successful ministries and grasp at any straw to criticize.-

          This is Bible-Thumping Wingnut, not Pulpit and Pen. I have no affiliation with them. May wanna redirect your complaint to them. Can you direct me to the negative articles I am churning out?

  12. Charlie 2 months ago

    We should practice what the the Lord told us to do if a brother sins against us. If you feel that convicted about it your FB page and website have the publicity/recognition to address this directly with him instead of gossiping and stirring up the water. Check Matt. 18:15-17. This isn’t to throw dirt either way. But if FC is in the wrong you are too for gossiping about it.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      A couple of thoughts. First, I doubt seriously if I even attempted to contact him about my concern he would even pay me the least bit of attention. Oh sure, he may give a gratuitous “thanks for sharing” response, but he wouldn’t care. In fact, he’d probably respond like a lot of the head-waggers bugged by my post, and say I don’t understand, or my tone was off putting, or some such nonsense.

      Second, his lecture was public. It was posted on his public FB Crazy Love fan page. It’s fair game for criticism. I do not owe him some secret phone call first so as not to hurt his feelings and the feelings of people who are reading my comments.

      One final word. Not sure how you are defining “gossip.” Gossip is talking about someone’s sin, the details of which are not true, or confirmed to be true, or not widely known. Francis sinned against that church openly and publicly for the whole world to see and for his words to hurt and destroy the people who once called him pastor. It may be helpful for you to have a bit of perspective about this.

  13. Charlie 2 months ago

    Fredman
    It is posted on the FB page which makes it open for criticism, it also opens it up for mis interpretation. Your right reaching out to FC probably won’t get you a response. But I will say this last thing. If Francis publicly sinned against them you privately sin by gossiping about it. If this has truly upset you cause he threw your friends/church under the bus, then you should address him. If he does not answer get more people to reach out to him. If he doesn’t respond to any of your accusations then you can call him out publicly.
    I have no bias because I don’t know either of you.

    Thanks brother for your zeal and passion For the bride. Grace and peace.

  14. Cynthia 2 months ago

    My thought on cliques, and maybe I’m wrong, is that they are good for a church that is overly large. I go to a very small church, everyone is in the clique. But in a large church it is difficult to know everyone, you all can’t meet for coffee at the local Cafe if you have 10,000 going. And shouldering everyone’s burdens in prayer would be impossible. I would imagine having a small group who know you, your family and life would be easier. The burdens you share they will understand if they have a similar burden. Also, and this is where I could be completely wrong, Jesus himself had a bit of a clique with his apostles. There were mainly the 12. They prayed for one another and worked together. They had similar stories and each had a specific reason and purpose for being in the inner circle. Jesus didn’t just allow anyone and everyone to join his clique. They were carefully chosen, right down to the one who would betray him. So the word clique has terrible connotations but the reality is that when it’s used in the right way it becomes a very good thing.

  15. Jared 2 months ago

    As someone who grew up roughly 1000 ft from Cornerstone, had several family members involved early at that church, and was myself exploring making the church my home with my new wife when Francis Chan announced that he was finally leaving… I will say that Freedman is right and even that what FC claimed in that meeting was a self-aggrandizing lie. Make no mistake about it, FC left Cornerstone to pursue a writing and speaking career… a year later… he officially announced he was wandering on to other ministries. After the success of Crazy Love, FC was out of town so much it would have been a stretch to call him a “pastor”. He was speaking everywhere but his home church. I remember one Sunday morning where he was boasting about his speaking engagement in Hawaii that he had just returned from and that he was then traveling up to Northern California the next day and then would be flying back east and would be gone for the next couple weeks… I then leaned over to my wife and joked how grateful I was that he was able to penciled us in today. So he has no right to claim, “And I’m like 5,000 people show up every week to hear my gift, see my gift,” because he wasn’t there for those 5,000 people to hear or see his gift, he was sharing his gift elsewhere and he absolutely loved the limelight he was in at that time.

  16. Steve 2 months ago

    What?!? BTWN posted an article in the name of “discernment” criticizing an evangelical for violating a 2nd or 3rd tier issue with which they disagree? The world of “discernment ministries” (an extra-biblical “ministry” by the way) grows more exclusive and critical by the hour.

    I do not agree with everything Chan teaches or writes … nor anyone else I can think of for that matter. I do respect that in the mega-church world of creating movements centered upon the preaching and personality of a single person (which discernment ministries are also quick to criticize) that Chan believed God was leading him down a different path that took him out of the spotlight.

    My guess is the real issue here is Francis Chan and the fact he is a) a continuationist and b) indirectly associates with some evangelicals with whom the vocal minority in the “discernment ministries” world disapprove.

    I trust Chan walks in step with the Holy Spirit and seeks to follow Jesus. He believes and preaches the gospel. Therefore I trust God is sovereign enough to lead Chan in ways beyond my approval.

    Press on Francis Chan.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      Steve writes,
      – What?!? BTWN posted an article in the name of “discernment” criticizing an evangelical for violating a 2nd or 3rd tier issue with which they disagree?-

      Whatya mean a 2nd or 3rd tier issue? He flat out lied against his former church. As I noted in the article, the reason he gave for leaving back in 2010 is not the reason he gives today, 2017. That is hardly a 2nd or 3rd tier issue. He needs to repent.

      Continuing,
      – I do not agree with everything Chan teaches or writes … nor anyone else I can think of for that matter. –

      Do you agree when you hear them lie against something you know the truth about? I hope not.

      – My guess is the real issue here is Francis Chan and the fact he is a) a continuationist and b) indirectly associates with some evangelicals with whom the vocal minority in the “discernment ministries” world disapprove.-

      My guess is the real issue here is that fact you find his aimless leap of faith talk as some genuine work of the Spirit and so dismiss when he really sins by lying against an entire church he started and then abandoned.

      • Steve 2 months ago

        You calling what Chan said a “lie” does not make it a lie. In my opinion, the concerns Chan speaks about with the FB crowd are the same ones he addressed when he stepped down from Cornerstone a few years ago (again using “abandon” language does not mean he abandoned the church – any more than any other pastor who is compelled to step away from a ministry). Back then he spoke of his concerns with churches being built around the personality of the pastor and not the exercise of the complete body of Christ. In the FB speech, Chan was simply addressing his concerns in general and generic terms. He was not suggesting no person was exercising their gifts and that every person at Cornerstone is spiritually lazy. He is painting with a broad brush – what each of us do when speaking of general concerns in a particular movement … like the discernment crowd tends to do when stating their opinion of almost any group outside of their own. Again – I am somewhat surprised this crowd is so worked up over Chan’s transition. They are constantly berating the megas of the evangelical world for many of same concerns that led to Chan’s departure from Cornerstone.

        I can’t speak whether Chan’s transition was an “aimless leap of faith” any more than I can any transition by any elder. So I simply have to trust that his words are genuine and his motive is pure. I have no reason to believe otherwise. I do know he exchanged a very public, nationally-known platform for a season of obscurity and limited publicity which speaks of the genuineness of his intent.

        So press on Francis Chan.

  17. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 2 months ago

    Steve writes-
    -You calling what Chan said a “lie” does not make it a lie. In my opinion, the concerns Chan speaks about with the FB crowd are the same ones he addressed when he stepped down from Cornerstone a few years ago (again using “abandon” language does not mean he abandoned the church – any more than any other pastor who is compelled to step away from a ministry).-

    Did you watch the video I linked where he was interviewed like just days after he initially stepped down from Cornerstone? Did you even see his original stepping down talk he gave to Cornerstone before it disappeared? Or heck, just read the Justin Taylor blog article I linked about it. The reason he gave then for leaving is not the reason he gave to the FB group. The fact that the Christian Post is reporting it proves it is different information he is giving now than he gave then which means he is lying about the reason he left.

    Continuing,
    – Back then he spoke of his concerns with churches being built around the personality of the pastor and not the exercise of the complete body of Christ.-

    No he didn’t. When? Where? You have any talks he gave from “back then?” I happen to be rather close to this seeing it happened in my background among a lot, a lot, people that I know.

    Continuing,
    – He was not suggesting no person was exercising their gifts and that every person at Cornerstone is spiritually lazy.-

    He literally used the very words, no one was using their spiritual gifts. Did you watch the video from the Facebook talk and did you pay attention? Fastforward to the 36 minute mark where he is being interviewed.

    – Again – I am somewhat surprised this crowd is so worked up over Chan’s transition.-

    Because when he originally transitioned, it was vague, uncertain, non-committal. He didn’t know what the heck he was gonna do. That is not how a spiritual leader is to make a decision. If you were a father and a guy like that wanted to marry your daughter and he was not sure as to why or where he was going in life, I would hope you would tell him to take a hike until he has it figured out. But if you seem to be devoted to his defense, so I can only conclude you like living your spiritually life with such whimsy.

    – I do know he exchanged a very public, nationally-known platform for a season of obscurity and limited publicity which speaks of the genuineness of his intent.-

    He never got obscure. Are you kidding? He was obscure as a pastor in LA suburbia, and if he genuinely wanted humility, he would have stayed in that position. In fact, after his Crazy Love book was a smash, he was rarely in his pulpit. He was speaking all over the world about his book. He exchanged an obscure pulpit to become a very public figure who continues to speak all over the place if you bother to look at his schedule. Especially now that he is running with NAR wolves.

    • Steve 2 months ago

      Okay Fredman – Chan is a liar and wolf. Add him to the “discernment ministries” list of another reformed guy who is a false teacher and needs to repent. Who is not on the list at this point?

      Do you think Francis Chan believed he was the ONLY person in Cornerstone exercising a spiritual gift?
      Do you think Francis Chan believed EVERY person at Cornerstone was spiritually lazy?

      Come on.

      I agree Chan was not crystal clear in his resignation regarding his next step. And I am okay with the vagueness. The pursuit of a next step is not always clear. I also know he has been speaking regularly of the house church movement he is now a part of for a long time. And again, I tend to trust people who have a heart for Jesus, walk in the Spirit, and preach the gospel.

      And we can agree to disagree on whether his chosen path has brought more or less publicity … it is a moot point.

      I will bow out of the conversation … as most of the evangelical world has discovered – it is pointless to argue with wingnuts.

  18. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 2 months ago

    – Do you think Francis Chan believed he was the ONLY person in Cornerstone exercising a spiritual gift?

    That is what he literally said, Steve. Without qualification.

    – Do you think Francis Chan believed EVERY person at Cornerstone was spiritually lazy?-

    That is exactly what he implied without any qualification. If you take him at his word as to why he left, why not now?

    -I agree Chan was not crystal clear in his resignation regarding his next step. –

    Not crystal clear? He gave two conflicting, contradictory reasons why he left.

    – And I am okay with the vagueness. –

    I’m not. God never mumbles.

    – I also know he has been speaking regularly of the house church movement he is now a part of for a long time. And again, I tend to trust people who have a heart for Jesus, walk in the Spirit, and preach the gospel.-

    The house church movement is rife with people who don’t like church and typically have a disdain for authority and gravitate toward similar individuals with strong personalities.

    – And we can agree to disagree on whether his chosen path has brought more or less publicity … it is a moot point.-

    The dude has his own section in the CBD catalog, along with Joel Osteen and TD Jakes. Are you serious?

    • Steve 2 months ago

      Add him to the list … of course we both know he was already on the list long before his Facebook speech for the non-essential reasons outlined in my first reply.

  19. J.R. Duren 2 months ago

    1) A shepherd leaving his church is not “unbiblical” as some have said.

    2) Your argument is based on your pre-existing distaste for Chan and the word of a few Cornerstone people you know. Hearsay at best; why should I trust your word over Chan’s?

    3) You are calling Chan a list. Point out the inconsistencies in the initial and later reasons why he left.

    4) The NT says the church should support it’s teachers but nowhere does it say you must take a salary, just like it fails to mention that it’s wrong for a pastor to leave his flock

  20. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 2 months ago

    JR states,
    – 1) A shepherd leaving his church is not “unbiblical” as some have said.-

    That is true. It is not unbiblical for a shepherd leaving his church. What is unbiblical however is:
    A) A pastor leaving his church without any serious plan in place as to where he is going except for the vague murmurings he think is God telling him something. God doesn’t call pastors away from pastoring their church based on hunches and whims without anywhere to really go to.
    B) The reason Francis originally gave for leaving contradicts the reason he states in this recent talk. That’s a problem.

    Continuing,
    – 2) Your argument is based on your pre-existing distaste for Chan and the word of a few Cornerstone people you know. Hearsay at best; why should I trust your word over Chan’s?-

    That is mostly true. I have a distaste for a man who lie to their churches and then go to a group of unbelievers and trash talk them as a bunch of spiritual dead people who let him down. I happen to know A LOT of people at Cornerstone and they will confirm my words here, as many have been doing on my FB posting of this, so you are speaking out of your ignorance.

    Moving along,
    – 3) You are calling Chan a list. Point out the inconsistencies in the initial and later reasons why he left.-

    Those reasons are clearly delineated in the video links I supplied above. Did you bother to watch them? Again, Francis initially claimed that God was calling him to some uncertain, cloudy future. He had to walk cities and pray (That is exactly NOT the way to determine God’s Will, btw). That was 2010. Now he is claiming he left because the people at his big church were spiritually lazy and doing nothing but coming to hear him speak and he was this mouth dragging along this inanimate corpse behind him. That is certainly not true seeing that I know that church and the far reaching ministries it has had in SoCal. See how that is lying?

    Lastly,
    -4) The NT says the church should support it’s teachers but nowhere does it say you must take a salary, just like it fails to mention that it’s wrong for a pastor to leave his flock-

    Yes, you are correct. A pastor taking a salary (Chan gets paid even to this day, btw. He can’t live in San Francisco without money) is not demanded by the NT. If a guy wants to not take a salary, that is his prerogative. However, the Bible does not exclude a pastor from taking a salary and in fact encourages a congregation to support a pastor financially. Additionally, a man who doesn’t take a salary and does the ministry for “free” as Francis likes to boast, is no more spiritual or more noble than the man who is supported by a salary given to him by a church.

  21. Tim Leathers 2 months ago

    I’m sorry I wasted some of my time reading this article. You sound like a jealous pastor of a congregation of 5 whiners that nothing could make them happy. This was a judgemental vial filled article and scripture says the measuring stick you use to judge other will be used on you!! I want to say I am amazed at what Chan has done and to build house churches is probably the way to go. Having a hand full of hungry people would be far better than a building full of sideline sitters. As a pastor I have to admit I’m kinda envious of Chan and his Spiritual GUTS!!

  22. Dan Berarducci 2 months ago

    There are NONE in the world more judgmental than insecure pastors. Sadly, most have been trained to worship their “Bible colleges” and “the traditions of great godly men” (read: super successful mega-church pastors), and run their “churches” as BUSINESSES.
    I am not surprised by this attack in the least.
    The Pharisees attacked Jesus in exactly the same way. Francis is CORRECT; American fundamentalists are “doing church” WRONG. They worshipped TRADITION, and most fundamentalists (i.e., “Bible thumpers”) do also.

  23. Shaun 2 months ago

    First of all I don’t like Francis Chan’s materials. Not my taste.

    You say he did all of these things publically so you in turn feel it necessary to publically correct him for his wrong doings.

    Sad really that you feel like it is your responsibility to do so. I could understand if you were part of his leadership team, or even a member of his former church. Who are you to put into question what he feels God has called him to do.

    Grow up.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      -You say he did all of these things publically so you in turn feel it necessary to publically correct him for his wrong doings.-

      Yes. When a pastor lies about his congregation publicly, it is necessary to rebuke him publicly for that wrong doing.

      – Sad really that you feel like it is your responsibility to do so.-

      It should be all Christians responsibility to confront untruth and lies being spoken by a supposed pastor when we personally know the truth.

      – Who are you to put into question what he feels God has called him to do.-

      God does not call Christians to lie. He especially doesn’t call a pastor to lie against his former church.

  24. Donkey 2 months ago

    Or, the Holy Spirit has simply revealed Jesus’ heart to Francis regarding rampant Diotrephes/Nicolaitan leaven that He hates so much.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      – Or, the Holy Spirit has simply revealed Jesus’ heart to Francis regarding rampant Diotrephes/Nicolaitan leaven that He hates so much.-

      Which was no where in the church that HE PASTORED.
      Of course, if there was that spiritlessness in his church, why is he not to blame? I mean, he is THE PASTOR, right?
      SO instead of praying for revival, he decides to bail on them and do his own thing? Got it. That is how the Holy Spirit leads, I suppose.

  25. Kori Claypool 2 months ago

    I watched his videos and never heard him throw anyone under the bus. He said he felt disconnected. I think home churches are great. I grew up in churches. Nobody getting close to anyone. We are suppose to be a family. I have never seen anyone acting like a family.

  26. Sean 2 months ago

    I agree totally agree with Francis that Church is supposed to be family. And if the head of the family does not like the way his family members are growing up, is it okay for him to abruptly leave them and then complain about their short comings to others?

    Additionally, if your family grows up in a way that disappoints you and they don’t mature at all or fast enough, doesn’t the leader of the family have some blame or responsibility in that failure. It seems that the head of the family should stick around and help lead, train and model for them the kind of maturity they need to reach, especially if he was the one responsible for shaping their character, instructing their hearts, developing their minds and managing their budgets.

  27. Tyler 2 months ago

    Rediculous from the start sir… He was just saying that Cornerstone is a conventional church, and that typical conventional ‘church’ with a head pastor does not lend itself to requiring people to walk in the gifts God gave them, and that Holy Spirit gave him a vision for how to do ‘church’ more biblically.

  28. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 2 months ago

    Tyler writes,
    – He was just saying that Cornerstone is a conventional church, and that typical conventional ‘church’ with a head pastor does not lend itself to requiring people to walk in the gifts God gave them, and that Holy Spirit gave him a vision for how to do ‘church’ more biblically.-

    Umm, Tyler. You do understand that Francis was the one who founded Cornerstone and was their headpastor, correct? Laying aside the asinine notion that God gives a pastor a “vision” of doing church more biblically and then calls that pastor away from his church, why on earth did he have to leave Cornerstone, the church he, FRANCIS, founded and pastored, in order to do church more ‘biblically?”

  29. v 2 months ago

    You sound clueless.

  30. Stephen Anderson 2 months ago

    Or perhaps God removed Francis Chan for the benefit of HIS Church.

  31. Stephanie Donlan 2 months ago

    Be careful.
    That speck and log kinda thing.

    I once did a road race where the fast runners were frustrated when the slow ones (me) didn’t stay to the right.
    I needed to get out of their way but I still made it to the finish.

    Get out of Francis Chan’s way. He is running his race.
    You can run yours. Don’t criticize him for not going at your pace or you might regret it.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      So I take it that you have no problem with Francis lying against the church he planted in Simi Valley? Is that right? As long as he is running a race thing, lying is okay. Got it.

  32. Nikki 2 months ago

    I just prayed for you and the other negative people. Your welcome. A lot of people don’t like truth. It can for sure hurt but I rather have truth because Jesus is truth. Wouldn’t you? Well good luck you all and God bless.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 2 months ago

      – I just prayed for you and the other negative people. Your welcome. A lot of people don’t like truth. It can for sure hurt but I rather have truth because Jesus is truth. Wouldn’t you? Well good luck you all and God bless.-

      So Nikki, Why is is it being a negative person to expose a man who is a liar? Francis lied against why he left his old church and accused them of spiritual behavior that is not true of their congregation. That is okay with you? Jesus is indeed truth, hence the reason why Francis needs to repent of lying.

  33. David Deppisch 2 months ago

    I for one am thrilled Francis left the church to write and speak– better use of his gifts perhaps. But without this I would never have heard of him and been encouraged by some of his sermons/videos/conference views etc.

    Did he lie? Well I have struggled with why I left my last church– I say it’s because I lived 45 miles away and it was hard as a bi-vocational pastor
    to shepherd, visit, and grow the church. Maybe the truth is I got frustrated with the pace– or lack of shared love within the congregation– or perhaps i just grew weary in doping good.

    But I can’t now remain in the past and beat myself up. I move forward hoping that as God’s mercy and grace envelop me, I will do better in persevering!

    The apostle Paul would’ve kept preaching and travelling — but God in His wisdom allowed Paul to be imprisoned and to write 2/3 of the New Testament! Maybe God has very different plans for Francis– and for all of us.

    When we go against His will, He is able to redirect our paths back to His original purpose and plan.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 1 month ago

      So David, when after leaving your church (I’m assuming this was a church you planted and grew like Francis did his), did you go to a group of unbelievers and trash talk about them? Talk about how they were all spiritually lazy, just showing up to hear you preach?

      • David Deppisch 1 month ago

        No I didn’t– but looking back, I realize that my weakness in ministry was not being able to look past all the obstacles and look to Christ– had I been more focused on Him and less on my struggle, perhaps I’d still be there making a difference.
        I remember a comment by someone who was criticizing another pastor who had come to a church of about 600 souls– and then “grew” it to 300!
        This pastor simply preached the truth– and as the church was convicted by God’s word– or couldn’t take it– those who were solid in their faith remained.

        It’s easy to get discouraged leading a church– especially when people look to the pastor as the ultimate support instead of Christ.

        I believe Francis is doing some good with his writing and speaking gifts– and encouraging the faithful. Fredman, have you ever lied or been maybe a bit hazy about your motivations for anything you’ve ever done? Have you been criticized, rebuked, or even had second thoughts about an action taken that may have brought someone’s reproach?
        I’m all for truth– and grace. Our Lord came full of both. Perhaps it’s time for allowing Francis to have some grace?

  34. Michael 1 month ago

    In 30 minutes, I will leave to mow a huge church lawn and an additional empty lot being held on for “expansion” purposes. It will take me five hours. I long for a church without a building, building budget, financial team, sound board problems, security team, blah, blah, blah. The only reason I stay at my present church as a deacon is that I am needed. No, that isn’t a presumption on my part. If I leave, the rest of the deacons have to take up the slack. I wish we, as a congregation, could sell this building, this land, and go back to meeting in the cafeteria of the local middle school.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 1 month ago

      That’s all nice and good, Michael, but how does that justify Francis lying against his former congregation? Just b/c you don’t like a big church doesn’t mean big churches are sinful or not what God intended. Francis is no more doing church “right” as your current church is apparently doing it “wrong.”

  35. Sterling 1 month ago

    What a sad article from an apparently very bitter person. May the Lord have mercy on you brother.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 1 month ago

      Sterling opines,
      -What a sad article from an apparently very bitter person. May the Lord have mercy on you brother.-

      Bitter? What on earth makes you think I wrote that out of bitterness? Really? How is it expressing bitterness to point out how Francis has sinned against the people he once pastored?

  36. Mike Allen 1 month ago

    My friend you are so so misunderstanding Francis Chan and the tone of which you speak about him as a “liar” is sounding to me like you know the facts and the mans heart, which you don’t, thats why your not God! most of what you refer to a lie are taking what he said out of context and honestly, the very reason he left this church is whats happening in today’s churches, NOTHING, thats why the world can’t see Jesus because most of the churches today are becoming the “Broad road that leads to destruction. You are a legalist and honestly, if Jesus or Peter came to your church today I’m sure they could or wouldn’t be allowed in the door by your standard!
    Today’s so called” Christian” lives “lukewarm” and the church stands by and doesn’t call anyone out of living in sin. If they did the numbers would fall! can’t get to crazy for Jesus!
    Fact, check it out the church has as much divorce, abortion, adultery, drugs, porn, issues as the so called NON believer . Per James H. Burrus Deputy Assistant Director, Criminal Investigative DivisionFederal Bureau of Investigation on with James Dobson recently 52% to as much as (65% per James Dobson) of pastors who call in on Family talks “hot line” for help, call in because of Pornography in their lives at the present time. So the churches are struggling in so many ways because they have become commercialized and wordly. I believe your out of line, Francis Chan is a great example of living Christ. And he left as pastors and friends good leaders and pastors at Cornerstone who wished him well and to this day respect him greatly, so again sounds to me like your on a witch hunt my friend. By the way what are you doing for the Lord? besides winging it from your chair.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 1 month ago

      Mike writes,
      – My friend you are so so misunderstanding Francis Chan and the tone of which you speak about him as a “liar” is sounding to me like you know the facts and the mans heart, which you don’t, thats why your not God!-

      What is there to understand Mike? In 2010, Francis declared to his church that he had some sort of gut-driven, whimsical feeling about leaving his church. He had no idea where he was going or what it was, but he knew for sure this is God’s calling. So he resigned and went on the traveling speaking circuit.
      A couple of things (And I have already pointed this out for the umpteenth time. Have you even bothered to read my responses here in the comments?): First, God doesn’t call a pastor to leave his flock to wander the earth looking for God’s will for his life. That is not how God has ever led his people at any time during redemptive history. And secondly, he left a spiritually thriving church that loved the Lord and was serving the Kingdom. They were hardly a church on the “broad road” as you assert.

      Fast forward to this year: Now Francis is claiming that he left because everyone at his church were terrible people who were spiritually mooching off of him and by the way he told his story, he was the only spirit-filled Christian at his church. This is an entirely different narrative he told originally AND it is bearing false witness against the people he served for nearly 15 years. Hence the reason why I am confident in calling him a liar.

      As much as you may wish to paint what he did with this sugary spirituality that makes him look like some sort of anointed hero, what he did was despicable and there is no other name for it by lying.

  37. ted myrrh 4 weeks ago

    Anyone criticizing Francis Chan for seeking God’s will and change shows how little we think of God’s leading. Im proud of francis for NOT following cultural megachurch trendss and seeking to be a true disciplemaker. What a respectable move to give up something you dont believe in at the risk of losing financial security and public approval. Francis doesn’t trust the approval of man…that makes him a godly leader and what makes CRITICAL ARTICLES LIKE THIS trying to shape public opinion rediculous. Imagine if Noah had consulted the community opinion before building an Ark. No doubt he got mocked for building a boat over many many years in a place where there was no water. God may ask people to do things that dont make sense AND THEY SHOULDNT…..because we are sinners and “God’s ways are not our ways” This is why every pastor or christian for that matter needs to learn to deny himself especially in an age where everybody thinks they have a right to comment on someone’s life choices. ITS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. slander and Gossip are sins as well . STOP GOSSIPING ABOUT FRANCIS CHAN AND GO SEEK GODS WILL FOR YOUR OWN LIFE IN MAKING DISCIPLES AND DENYING YOURSELF.

  38. Abraham 4 weeks ago

    Abraham
    I have a question for you : Was the angel Rev 3: 14- 21 slandering the church in Laodieca ? Or calling them to repentance publicly in a letter thats been written for some 2000 yrs.
    Could it be possible that FC was feeling the same ? Thats more than obvious it doesn’t seem to be the case with you. According to the way you have chosen is show FC as a Liar & nothing but a Liar who needs to be humiliated publicly having lied to his church and force him to apologize !!! Do you see the error of your ways , or are you going to put on another spin to your self righteous slander about FC.
    Have you written to FC or spoken to him for some clarification re; the way you feel & all the opinions you towards him. Obviously does not look like you have and neither have any desire to. Let me enlighten you the way you need to go about this Mt 18 :15-17…….
    Turn from the error of your ways. If you want to be right with God that is the way ………. but if you love praise from men then you will continue with your tirade against FC.

  39. David A Deppisch 3 weeks ago

    Drop the rock…

  40. Julie 3 weeks ago

    The writer of this article is wrong. I’ve heard Chan talk first hand of his reasons for leaving and it is no where near what the author is saying. He also seems to be bashing Christians. Is the writer of this article suppose to be a pastor? Gosh I hope not!
    Sounds like sour grapes to me.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 3 weeks ago

      – I’ve heard Chan talk first hand of his reasons for leaving and it is no where near what the author is saying. –

      So you are saying he has even another story he tells people as to why he left his church? Really? That makes the accusations against him even worse, not better. He is inconsistent as to why he said he left his church, that is a problem, Julie. The man is talking out of two-sides of his mouth.

      – He also seems to be bashing Christians. –

      How do you get that I am bashing Christians? What gives you that impression if I may ask? I am merely pointing out how Francis is wildly inconsistent. He told his church one reason he left and at the FB meeting provides an entirely different reason. Now you are saying there is a third reason? That is a mark of a trouble character.

      – Is the writer of this article suppose to be a pastor? –

      No, I am not a pastor. But what relevance does that have with Francis’s contradictory claims one way or another?

  41. pat atkins 3 weeks ago

    I can’t believe the narrowness of your heart. Praying for you bro.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 3 weeks ago

      – I can’t believe the narrowness of your heart.-

      What does my heart have to do with whether or not Francis is telling the truth about him initially leaving his church and what he says now was the reason? I’m just pointing out this gross contradiction in his story and I am supposedly the hater?

  42. Prince 1 week ago

    Everything is non-Christian about this article. Not even sure what is even the point of such a ‘so called’ ministry.

  43. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 5 days ago

    Prince writes,
    – Everything is non-Christian about this article. Not even sure what is even the point of such a ‘so called’ ministry.-

    Really? I thought my point was rather clear. Francis Chan has lied about why he left his church back in 2010. My point was to call him out on that fib and rebuke him for throwing his old church under the bus and slandering their character. How exactly is that non-Christian? Please explain.

  44. Aaron 5 days ago

    Heres the thing. This isnt a charitable post. Criticism is necessary maybe for some pivitol doctrinal issue like Tob Bell and universalism….but Chan? I never would have known about this but for your post and it (ur post) does paint a sour picture of Chan. This isnt charitable. Or loving.

    I get the value of truth. Hell im a guy who prefers raw truth over feelings. But thats my weakness…it seems to be yours also. Truth in love must be held equally. Personally i think ur wrong on Chan (my oppinion) but suppose you are right, your article could be framed giving the guy the benefit of the doubt. Thats what love requires – thinking the best of people, erring in their favour rather than against it (innocent until unequivocally proven guilty). It also means not nit picking tiny issues (chan isnt endorsing heresy, nor is the guy sinning- hes giving his opinion). Love is patient remember. It suffers long and isnt easily offended – it covers a multitude of sins.

    In practice it means it should take alot to criticize someone harshly and if u do, do it gently as you would want it done to you. Idealists like you and I need to learn and practice this. Care primarily about fundamentals like gospel. Its hard im speaking to myself also as im a literalist.eg I dont believe in remarriage after divorce for any reason, nor in female pastors, im a continuationist and reformed soteriologically. So most people don’t share my views on all of that. Its a challenge to love and not always nitpick.

    To chan – hes the guy who taught me this. I noticed how he didn’t focus on tearing down the false rather just erecting correct teaching to follow. Criticism makes you bitter and unloving. Like Jesus i encourage you just to preach truth – ie good doctrine (not pointed criticism of others) and as Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and another they will not follow.

    I think Chan is one of the few who holds practically to perspecuity of scripture and reads it plainly and literally lkke me. I appreciate that about him. Regarding his lordship style teaching – in my opinion hes just a consistent calvinist. The new birth produces faith in the gospel and inevitably fruit – as we have a new heart.

    Please edit your article or remove it entirely. Chan wouldn’t write such an article about you. How he dealt with Rob Bell is admirable – he prayed for him and called him before he released earasing hell (his rebuttal to Bell). Thats way more than me – i just called him a heretic and ended up leaving my church for it as many loved and supported bell.

    Chans model is the best model. Very Christ like. Love in method and heart is equally important as truth. I urge u to follow that model. Your lack of chaity in your article driwns out your message (even if you may have a valid point) – i personally think you dont. Charity and truth. Easy lip service but harder to model.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 3 days ago

      Aaron complains
      – Heres the thing. This isnt a charitable post. Criticism is necessary maybe for some pivitol doctrinal issue like Tob Bell and universalism….but Chan? I never would have known about this but for your post and it (ur post) does paint a sour picture of Chan. This isnt charitable. Or loving.-

      On the contrary, I believe I was being rather charitable. Particularly charitable toward the good people of Cornerstone Church against whom Francis lied when he told the the reason he left in 2010 and the reason he now tells a Facebook lecture group. It should leave a sour picture of Chan, because out right lying against people and slandering their character is a sour thing to do.

      – Personally i think ur wrong on Chan (my oppinion) but suppose you are right, your article could be framed giving the guy the benefit of the doubt.-

      There is no doubt at all. He told his church one reason he was abandoning them in 2010 and then totally contradicted himself this past summer at a FB event. What benefit of the doubt am I to give to a flat out lie.

      – It also means not nit picking tiny issues (chan isnt endorsing heresy, nor is the guy sinning- hes giving his opinion).-

      An alleged pastor of some esoteric life group organization lying about his former Christian friends and church is not a tiny issue.

      – In practice it means it should take alot to criticize someone harshly and if u do, do it gently as you would want it done to you. –

      If I was caught in a bold face public lie like Chan, I hope that someone would criticize me and show me how I was a liar so I could repent.

      – Please edit your article or remove it entirely. Chan wouldn’t write such an article about you.-

      That will happen if Chan public repents for the slander against his former church. In fact, I’ll even write a follow up highlighting it. At this point, I am not holding my breath.

  45. joe 4 days ago

    People are mad at Francis because he’s speaking the truth. It’s not enough to believeThe fact of the matter is the majority of so-called Christians are going to hell according to the Bible. Jesus said Broad and wide is the road that leads to destruction. The church in America is a joke and it is lukewarm because the church in America’s true God is money. you guys are angry because you refuse to crucify your flesh and take up your cross and only one in your cushy Christian messages was make you feel good. you don’t love your neighbor as yourself because your Money is your God and it’s undeniable because the proof is in your actions.

    True Christians obey the word of God , not just listen to it, 99% of the Christians in America are frauds because they just want to sit there but in church and feel good about ourselves and think just because they have the so-called correct theology, there going to heaven, If you are not obeying God’s word on a daily basis and living the Bible you’re going straight to hell according to the Bible.

    Right now as you are reading this your flesh is rising up against this message because of the evil in your hearts be the love of money in your hearts. you guys think you’re better than everyone because you’re not homosexuals, you are worse than homosexuals because your are greedy idolaters who’s god is money. this is proven by everything that comes out of your mouth and the way you live your lives. Christ was crucified and suffered on the cross for you and you won’t even part with your precious money and help those in need because you are servants of your God which is money

    Ezekiel 16:49

    Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
    ————————————————————
    Ezekiel 33:31

    My people come to you, as they usually do, and sit before you to hear your words, but they do not put them into practice. Their mouths speak of love, but their hearts are greedy for unjust gain.
    ————————————————————
    Isaiah 57:17

    I was enraged by their sinful GREED; I punished them, and hid my face in anger, yet they kept on in their willful ways.
    ————————————————————
    Isaiah 58:5-14

    “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter– when you see the naked, to clothe him?
    ————————————————————
    Jeremiah 6:13
    For from the least to the greatest of them, everyone is GREEDY for unjust gain; and from prophet to priest, everyone deals falsely.
    ————————————————————
    Jeremiah 8:10

    Therefore I will give their wives to other men and their fields to new owners. From the least to the greatest, all are GREEDY for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.
    ————————————————————
    Matthew 5:42

    Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
    ————————————————————
    Matthew 6:24

    No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.
    ————————————————————
    Mark 7:20-23

    And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, GREED, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
    ————————————————————
    Luke 6:30

    Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
    ————————————————————
    Luke 12:33

    Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
    ————————————————————
    Titus 1:16

    They claim to know God, but they deny him by their actions.
    ————————————————————
    James 1:22

    Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
    ————————————————————
    James 2:14-18

    What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
    ————————————————-
    Titus 1:16

    They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him.
    ————————————————————
    Ephesians 5:3-5

    For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is GREEDY (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
    ————————————————————
    Galatians 5:19-21

    Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, GREED, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    ————————————————————-
    1 John 3:16-18

    This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
    ————————————————————
    Colossians 3:5

    Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and GREED, which is idolatry.

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 3 days ago

      Joe opines,
      – The church in America is a joke and it is lukewarm because the church in America’s true God is money.-

      I am not talking about the “church in America.” I am talking about Cornerstone church in Simi Valley where Francis pastored several years. That church was the exact opposite this stereotypical church you are painting with your comment.

      – True Christians obey the word of God , not just listen to it,-

      The church in question obeyed the Word of God. Francis taught them as much. I am not sure you know what you are talking about.

      – Christ was crucified and suffered on the cross for you and you won’t even part with your precious money and help those in need because you are servants of your God which is money-

      I am wondering if you have the right blog to yell at. No one here is asking for money or loving money. What on earth?

      Then finally, all the passages you cite and quote are out of context and irrelevant to this discussion.

  46. MC 1 day ago

    The author of this article comments that somebody mentioned that Francis Chan’s services are “too casual”, like a youth retreat. He made it sound like a criticism? Really? I have attended churches where people dressed up for church and now attend a church where the atmosphere is casual. I’ve experienced God in both types of services, including through the people who attended. I don’t see how one dresses as a relevant factor whether God will be there or not. Did Jesus and his disciples dressed up every time he gave a sermon? Did the sinners, prostitutes, poor folks who suffered from leprosy put on their ties and dresses to go meet him? God made it clear, he looks into the hearts of people, not on the outside. Has the American church really lost its touch with God?

    • Profile photo of Fredman Author
      Fredman 1 day ago

      Sure. Why even get dressed for church. Let’s all just wear our pajamas and flipflops. God looks at the heart, right?

  47. Peter 1 day ago

    ” I thought to myself at the time, “Where in the Bible does God call people to aimlessly wander around in order to find His will?” ”

    – Remember Abraham? God told him to pack up and set out on a Journey. No idea where he was headed. He only got there because of Obedience
    – Remember Paul and Barnabas who moved by the Spirit of God to start an itinerant ministry?
    – Remember Philip who God told to take a particular route through the desert? He preached to the Ethiopian official who received salvation after a single conversation.

    “those who are Led by the Spirit – THEY are the sons of God”

    Instances these make me take a little step back from criticizing people who assert that God led them to do a certain thing. In the end, God will judge all his servants and reward them accordingly.

    I appreciate your concern for brother Chan. I could be wrong but the tone of your article is rather angry… is this coming from a place of love? “Seasoned with salt”? Would an unbeliever reading this be convinced of the Love of God?

  48. Profile photo of Fredman Author
    Fredman 1 day ago

    Peter writes,
    – Remember Abraham? God told him to pack up and set out on a Journey. No idea where he was headed. He only got there because of Obedience-

    No. Read your Bible. God told Abraham specifically where he was taking him. Abraham didn’t depart on a journey on a whimsy unsure where God was leading.

    – Remember Paul and Barnabas who moved by the Spirit of God to start an itinerant ministry?-

    They didn’t “start” an itinerant ministry. They were sent by the church in Antioch. Read the account in Acts 11:19ff.

    – Remember Philip who God told to take a particular route through the desert? He preached to the Ethiopian official who received salvation after a single conversation.-

    Yes. God told him. God specifically told him the route to take through the desert. He didn’t have to go wandering around trying to determine the will of God. God told him clearly.

    To liken these examples to Francis abandoning his church to fulfill his own selfish desires is absurd. It dishonors the Word of God.

    And believe me, my article is very much coming from a place of love. I love truth and refuse to traffick in lies.

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